Chapter 9
Existence Exist
anon-remailer@utopia.hacktic.nl (Anonymous) wrote>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960105093530.18848B-100000@nova,
Supravat Bhattacharya <ucsam@nova.umuc.edu wrote>
Challenge
I never implied that something predates existence, but rather that there is an Existence from which all existences derive, as is posited in the Hindu Vedas and Upanishads, as well as in the theologies of many world religions.
Response #1
Theology asserts a lot, but proves nothing. Why invent an extra super-duper existence to explain this one? Your super-existence is subject to all the questions you ask about this existence, and solves nothing.
Response #2
Good use of Neo-Tech.
Challenge
Existence does not derive from nonexistence, and since existence came to being with time and space there is a Creator.
Response #1
How do you know this? Is the creator of myth supposed to be eternal? If so, you concede the possibility of an eternal thing. In which case it is also possible that the universe is eternal, and thus needed no creator.
Response #2
Excellent NT identification, and good basis for further Zonpower perspectives.
Challenge
"Why are we here? Because we're here. Roll the bones." I disagree with both Neil and you if that's what Neil really believes. You're shutting yourself off into intellectual stalemate. Man is a thinking and reasoning animal. It is inherent in his nature to ask questions and seek out patterns, significance and meanings when he observes reality. If life is an end in itself, then we have to ask "What is Life?"
Response #1
Emergent order from replicating molecular systems subjected to selective pressure by limited available resources.
Response #2
I'll buy that--exclusive of consciousness. Conscious beings, through conscious actions within physical law, control surroundings (existence) to overcome obstacles implicit in limited resources (Zonpower).
Challenge
Once again, I disagree. The most obvious fact of life is its transitoriness. The written word, the carved stone, the heroic deed--all pass away and are subject to the law of time. Our political systems, economic arrangements, and ideologies will one day be the subjects of historians. Even the sun (theoretically) will at some period in the very distant future go through phases of enlargement and ensuing collapse that may make the earth uninhabitable....Nothing goes on forever.
Response #1
Does this somehow diminish pleasure? I agree that everything is transitory, but big deal. Your hardwired survival instinct rebels against your temporal limitations, but that's not the voice of god, its the voice of DNA.
Response #2
I agree mostly. Yes, seek happiness and pleasure -- the purpose of life. Such pursuit brings increasing knowledge and technology in order to experience higher and more integrated levels of happiness and pleasure. Increasing knowledge and technology delivers increasing levels of Zonpower (conscious control of existence) which in turn brings more happiness and pleasure, etc. And when a rational society which prohibits the initiation of force is ever instituted among men, survival and competitive pressures will drive virtually everyone into increased modes of value production. It is only on the vine of force that *net* mediocrity and irrationality can survive.
Challenge
I believe, as you do, that the universe is ordered although there is some randomness and indeterminacy (which will likely be resolved scientifically in the future) but we don't now nor likely ever will understand WHY the universe is ordered, which necessarily brings up the question of what may underlie it.
Response #1
Why ask why? :) Without any answer, this question changes nothing.
Response #2
Excellent exercise of Neo-Tech. Existence exists. It *is*.
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